Cat: Welcome to The Broad Beta Podcast. This is Cat, and I’ll be hosting today with Broad Beta co-founder Jeannie Wall.

Szu-ting Yi, known as Ting Ting in the climbing community, moved to the U.S. from Taiwan to attend grad school in computer science in Philadelphia. During grad school, she discovered trad climbing at the Gunks, which completely changed her life path—from computer science to climbing. She took a NOLS course, met her mentor who later became her husband, and went on to establish first ascents around the world.

She’s written for Alpinist and published books about climbing in Chinese. Along the way, she completed the AMGA Rock Guide track and became a full-time climbing guide. In 2023, Ting Ting launched her own podcast called Female Guides Requested.

We recently connected because of our overlapping audiences, and we had a lot of fun hearing her story, how her podcast came to be, and brainstorming ways to combine podcast powers. Without further ado, please welcome the talented Ting Ting Yi.

Jeannie: I’d love to start with your background in climbing and guiding—what pulled you into it, and why you felt compelled to write or interview women guides specifically. We've also interviewed women guides, but we focus more broadly on the climbing, backcountry ski, and wilderness communities—especially women and queer folks. But we've definitely crossed paths with similar people, so I’d love to hear your perspective.

Szu-ting: Sure. A little background—I'm originally from Taiwan. I came to the U.S. basically to escape some pressure from my mom. In Asian culture, there's this stereotype that you can only choose from like five jobs: doctor, professor, that kind of thing. For my mom, that was pretty true. I felt a lot of pressure.

So I ran away from that idea. My older brother suggested I go to the U.S., and I was like, okay, sure. I ended up going to grad school at UPenn in Philadelphia.

That’s when I started exploring outdoor activities. I didn’t really get to do that in Taiwan, even though it’s a mountainous country. I started with mountaineering, but after a while, I realized I was always just walking. I kept thinking, “How come people say they’re climbing mountains, but I’m just hiking?”

Eventually, I followed a three-pitch climb in the Gunks and discovered trad climbing. I was hooked. The scenery was beautiful, and the idea of using gear you could reuse—it just opened this door to adventure for me.

For some reason, I had this goal of doing alpine first ascents. I was totally new to the sport, but it became a kind of North Star guiding my path.

Jeannie: I have to ask—how did that even come to you? You hadn’t climbed much yet. Why did you want to do first ascents?

Szu-ting: I think I just loved the idea of exploring something new, of doing something no one else had done. Of course, to gain experience, I had to climb established routes. But I must’ve been influenced by magazines or stories I read. I remember thinking, “Wouldn’t it be amazing to combine trad gear with new terrain?” It felt like the ultimate adventure.

It’s been a while, so I can’t remember exactly what sparked it, but that’s how it started.

I was already in my 30s when I started trad climbing. I took a NOLS course to learn in a structured way and advance efficiently. That’s where I met my mentor—who’s now my husband. He had done a lot of first ascents, so under his mentorship, I went on some epic expeditions.

Eventually, I wanted to be self-sufficient. He was more experienced, but I wanted to lead expeditions and be seen as an equal. I figured if I became a certified guide, no one would question whether I could handle things on my own. That’s what pushed me to pursue the AMGA Rock Guide track. Even though I do alpine climbs, I didn’t want to guide on snow, so I focused on rock.

Jeannie: Were you still in grad school during all this?

Szu-ting: I was finishing up my PhD in computer science.

Jeannie: Wow.

Szu-ting: Yeah.

Jeannie: And then you went through all the guide courses?

Szu-ting: Yep. I got pretty distracted by climbing, honestly. I didn’t do much computer work, though maybe I should’ve stuck with it a little longer—could’ve saved some money.

Cat: Did you ever end up using your PhD? Did you work in computer science at all?

Szu-ting: Briefly. I did some part-time consulting. My field was natural language understanding, a subfield of AI. But full-time jobs were hard to find part-time versions of, and I was already older when I started climbing. I didn’t want to miss my window, so I decided to focus on climbing and figured I could come back to tech later if I wanted to.

Jeannie: Sometimes I wonder if climbing saves us or ruins us.

Szu-ting: Right? Once you’ve made a choice like that, there’s no going back. I’m pretty satisfied with my life now, but I try not to dwell on the what-ifs. I can’t compare a “Ting Ting who stayed” with the “Ting Ting who left.”

Jeannie: That’s so valid. I think that’s why Cat and I are so curious—because culturally, it doesn’t make “sense” to walk away from a PhD and a potentially high-paying career. But following your passion is hard, and it’s brave.

Cat: Yeah, that really resonates. I read one of your Alpinist articles, and there’s this part I found so powerful. You were talking about your advisor helping you apply to post-docs, and you told her you planned to “enjoy yourself in the mountains instead.” And she said, “Szu-ting, you’re not ambitious.”

That hit me. To me, you are ambitious—it just looks different. So how do you define ambition?

Szu-ting: That was my advisor, Martha. She was honestly the best advisor I could’ve asked for—super supportive. She trained me to be an independent researcher and never told me what to do. When I got some papers rejected, she said, “Your ideas are just too advanced. People can’t quite follow yet.” She believed in me more than I believed in myself.

Having someone like that behind me was everything. And when you’re going through a hard time—like failed expeditions—you need to believe in your direction, even if others don’t.

As for ambition... I don’t know. It’s not like I wanted to be rich or famous. I just had this drive to do what I loved. That was my ambition: to see how far I could push myself. Maybe it wouldn’t be satisfying, but I needed to find out.

Cat: Looking back, do you think you’ve seen what you’re capable of? Or are you still on that path?

Szu-ting: I think I’ve accomplished a lot through first ascents, and I’ve learned so much. It trains you to solve problems—and I’ve realized I love problem-solving. It’s really not that different from computer science.

People sometimes assume I left tech because I hated it, but that’s not true. I still find it fascinating. I’ve always loved sci-fi, imagining the future. Star Trek was my favorite.

Jeannie: What do you think the world will be like in 500 years? Or even in 10? Because right now, it’s terrifying.

Szu-ting: It really is. I try to find peace by thinking, "At least we get to live in this wild era." Maybe in 100 years, people will look back and say, “Wow, those people had to live through chaos.”

Cat: History books are going to have a field day.

Jeannie: Can you talk about your shift from writing to podcasting? And how those fit with guiding?

Szu-ting: For a while, I was traveling, living in a van. I picked up guiding gigs here and there, not full-time. During that time, I started writing for Taiwanese and Chinese magazines, sharing my adventures in the U.S. I also published about five books—some instructional, some stories.

Living cheaply in a van let me live that life. Ironically, if I’d had a tech job, I probably couldn’t have done it.

In 2019, I settled in Vegas and began guiding full-time. Around the COVID era, there was a big push for diversity—Black Lives Matter, AMGA’s affinity programs, all that. People started asking for my advice because I’m a woman of color. I hadn’t thought much about it before, even though I noticed I was often the only woman in the room—whether in AMGA courses or in computer science.

I started Female Guides Requested to share more stories—not just mine, but from other underrepresented guides. The name came from work assignments where clients specifically requested female guides—or female guides requested the client.

Cat: How do you find your guests?

Szu-ting: I started with local friends in Vegas—Tracy Martin and Elena were obvious choices. Then others I’d worked with like Miranda Oakley, Amy Barnes, and

Szu-ting: So, Tracy Martin and Elena were kind of no-brainers. I was like, well, they're amazing guides and also women, so I reached out and interviewed them.

Cat: That's actually how I first found you—I think Tracy posted the episode on Facebook, and I was like, “Who is this?”

Szu-ting: Yeah! So I started with women guides I’d worked with before. Then I moved on to folks from the same guiding company. I remember the third episode—Miranda Oakley—we’d worked together in the past. And Amy Barnes is kind of a legendary figure in the Mountain Guides.

After that, I started interviewing newer guides because I wanted to hear their perspectives too. I teach SPI courses, and some of my students go on to work in the field, so I brought some of them on as guests.

At the time, the AMGA still held in-person annual meetings in Salt Lake. If I bumped into someone, I’d say, “Hey, I’ve got this podcast. Want to be on it?” Later, I started asking my guests to recommend others. Now, I’ve got this long list of people I want to interview—it’s going to take a while to get through it.

Cat: Do you find podcasting to be your preferred medium? Or are there times when you think you'd rather write an article about someone?

Szu-ting: That’s a good question. I definitely prefer podcasting, even though it’s a lot of work. It's still easier than writing an article. I’ve written two pieces for Alpinist, and honestly, that was harder than climbing—like harder than projecting my hardest sport route!

It was tough, but I learned a lot. I’m so grateful to Katie Ives, the editor—she really brought the best out of my writing. But to write at that level consistently? It’s incredibly time-consuming.

So with the podcast, it feels more unfiltered, more first-person. I do very light editing. You know how on YouTube, you sometimes appreciate when a video isn’t over-edited? It feels real. That’s the vibe I go for.

Cat: Do you do a lot of editing?

Szu-ting: I do edit, but lightly. I always tell my guests, “This isn’t live. If you don’t like your answer, just say so and I’ll take it out.” That way they feel more comfortable, more free to be honest.

I mainly remove long pauses or excessive filler words. I find it hard to listen to myself—I’m like, “Why did it take me so long to ask that question?” So I sometimes edit myself out. The audience doesn’t need to hear me; they’re here for the guest.

I rarely edit my guests much, unless there’s a long pause or they ask me to cut something. Most of them are so articulate, it’s easy.

Cat: Yeah, I feel the same. The audience isn’t tuning in to hear me—they want to hear the guest. And I totally get what you mean about hearing yourself ask a question and cringing later.

Jeannie: I don’t know about YouTube, but I’ve noticed that on many male-hosted podcasts, the interviewer talks so much. It drives me crazy.

Cat: Yeah! With the right host, it doesn’t bother me, but there are definitely podcasts where the host just talks over the guest.

Szu-ting: Funny you mention that—one of my listeners, who’s also a guide, once told me, “Ting Ting, I love how you actually listen.” I was like, “What do you mean?” And he said, “You ask exactly the question I want to ask after hearing the guest’s answer.” That made me realize—of course! Listening should be a requirement for a good host.

Cat: That reminds me of Maya Shankar’s podcast. She’s a neuroscientist and brilliant interviewer. She always seems to ask the exact follow-up I was hoping for.

Szu-ting: That’s what I want to improve on—asking better questions.

Cat: How do you get feedback from your listeners? I feel like we need to do more of that.

Szu-ting: It’s hard. People rarely give feedback. Same thing when we guide—clients don’t always fill out forms, or they’re afraid to be honest. Most people just say, “Love your podcast!” Which is great, don’t get me wrong. But I want to know what they really think.

Sometimes I’ll run into someone who’s listened, and I start asking questions to get their thoughts.

Jeannie: I’ll risk asking something a little deeper. We both want to empower women and share women’s stories in the outdoor world. I sometimes wonder—is this resonating? Every now and then, someone will say, “This helped me,” and that’s what keeps me going.

But if you look at algorithms and followers, it’s frustrating. We don’t do much marketing—it’s all grassroots. That used to work, but now it’s not enough. You probably know this more than anyone, as a computer scientist.

Szu-ting: Yeah, and I still find marketing really difficult! That’s not a typical computer science strength. Honestly, I didn’t even know your podcast existed until recently, even though you started before me. But since we’re both telling stories from a similar demographic, it’s great that we’ve now connected.

We’re not putting out episodes every week, so sometimes it takes longer for the dots to connect. But I do think there’s a lot of potential if we share our platforms.

Cat: Success is an infinite resource—we can all succeed and build off each other. Do you have any sponsors, Ting Ting?

Szu-ting: My sponsor? Me! I basically donate my time and resources.

Cat: Jeannie, we’ve had Ford for our big events, right?

Jeannie: Yeah, and other sponsors have supported Broad Beta, but the outdoor industry is struggling right now. The tariffs aren’t helping either. We’re starting to look outside the outdoor industry for support.

Even though we’re a nonprofit, it’s still tough. It’s a labor of love. People want to support us, but not always at the level we need long-term.

Cat: It’s a chicken-and-egg problem—without a huge audience, it’s hard to get sponsors. But we also need resources to reach that audience.

We’re not that active on Instagram. Broad Beta has an account, but Jeannie and I don’t have personal ones. That probably hurts us, but we’re just not from that Instagram-native generation—and honestly, I don’t want to be.

Szu-ting: Same. My podcast is really niche. Sometimes I wonder—are my listeners all guides? Or are there others out there too?

Cat: We ask ourselves that too. Is our audience just women who get outside a lot, or also people who just connect with our tone and message?

Jeannie: I think it’s a mix. We know mountain women are our core community, but it’s more diverse than that. Our last guest wasn’t a climber—she was a river guide and skier. The broader outdoor experience really resonates.

Cat: Totally random, but do you have a favorite guest?

Szu-ting: Ooh, hard question! I mean, sometimes I think, “Wow, that episode went great. People will love this.” But then it’s not the one that gets the biggest reaction. And vice versa—episodes I didn’t think were that strong end up being super popular.

A lot of people listen to just one or two episodes, depending on if they know the guest. I’d love to hear from listeners who’ve followed the show for a while—just to know if they think I’ve improved or not!

When I interview friends, it’s easier—we already have trust. But now I often interview people I’ve never met. Building trust in a short time is a challenge.

Cat: Do you do any pre-interviews?

Szu-ting: Not really. Some guests are nervous, so we might have a 10-minute call beforehand. If they ask, I’ll send over some general questions. But I don’t give them detailed outlines.

If the questions are too specific, they rehearse the answers—and then the actual conversation feels scripted. I want things to feel spontaneous and natural.

Jeannie: If it’s too rehearsed, you lose the magic. We used to do pre-interviews, but we don’t anymore. It’s better to build trust right before or during the recording. We also let guests review their episode if they’re nervous.

Cat: Yeah, I’m glad we stopped pre-interviews. There was one time, with Darcy Chenoweth, where the pre-interview was so good—and I wished we’d just recorded that. But even so, that episode ended up being one of our most listened to.

Jeannie: Ting Ting, this has been so great. I feel like we’ve just scratched the surface—we should definitely do another interview with you and go deeper into your story. The transition from a PhD to full-time guiding is fascinating.

Thanks for your time. I’m so excited we’re connecting and sharing audiences. We need more of this—especially right now. Women’s voices in the outdoors still don’t get the space they deserve. Let’s keep it going.

Szu-ting: Absolutely. I’m grateful too. Thank you both.

Cat: Thank you for listening to The Broad Beta Podcast. If you have questions or suggestions, reach out at admin@broadbeta.com.